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Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
10/20/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Thanks Russ,
We just started delivering salt to our customers. I favor the ten bag minimum . We charge $85.00 for ten 50 pound bags delivered to the brine tank.
 
Icon_missing_medium richardde young 0 Posts
10/20/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Mike, Andrew Christianson's response is dead on.
I have over the years discussed/responded/defended this exact issue of RO "wasted" water using the same points that Andrew has. Andrew has hit it right on the head I have got to say I've never been able to put it in writing as good as he has. Kudos to you Andrew, I would like to use some of what you have written for my responses in the future.
The only thing I add in discussion to the consumer is to stay focused on what we are looking for and that is purified drinking water, now we have to consider the best and most cost effective way of getting it. When you consider the cost of 2 gallons of public utility water that is used to produce 1 gallon of purified RO water we aren't aware of a better solution.
Richard De Young
Advanced Water Solutions
Houston, Texas
 
Icon_missing_medium Russ Knight 0 Posts
10/19/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

We charge a flat $80.00 per hour residential, $90.00 per hour commercial from the time we leave the shop until we finish the job. Some (most) of our competitors charge lower rates than us, a couple are higher. We arrived at this rate based on our overhead, our desired profit margin, and comparing the quality of our work to the competition. While we feel the quality of our installations and equipment are superior to any of our competitors, we did not want to be branded as the most expensive source for water conditioning in our area.
We have also opened a plumbing and electrical supply retail store which has given our water conditioning business even greater public exposure. We offer relatively inexpensive (995.00 - 1495.00) DIY systems for those so inclined, to more advanced systems that include installation and service contracts. If we can ever get through this political / bureaucratically induced nightmare of an economy, we feel we are positioned to do very well here. Which reminds me to encourage everyone to "tro da bums out."
Russ Knight
 
Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
10/18/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Thanks guys, I was pretty sure we were in the same area on service work. We cover a three or four county area that is largely rural but we also have municipal water lines running into areas you would normally not expect to see them. We have hard and also run into black water sulper in this area, we also have problems with water availability. Thak you again for posting a response.
Rob
 
Icon_missing_medium richardrizzo 0 Posts
10/15/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

We cover a 100 mile radius from our main office and charge a $50 Diagnostic Fee, which is a visual inspection, plus a before and after water test, then $45 per half hour once we pull out tools to work on equipment.
 
Icon_missing_medium charlesthome... 0 Posts
10/15/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Rob,
In the Midwest, City of 21,000, we charge based on man/vehicle cost/hour; establishing an average rate our service call is Labor is $35.00/hour and vehicle is $45/hour = $80/hour with a 2 hour minimum.
 
Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
10/14/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

It has been awhile since I jumped on this site. We are presently charging $85.00 for a service call. I have heard anywhere from $60.00 to $105.00 is the going rate. We are located in the North East.

Rob
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/14/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Mike,
If it is a POU and it uses few gallons a day my two cents worth might make sense. Permeate pumps work well to reduce waste water due to using the back pressure as a driving force. I have found that if someone wants to go green in a POE sytem, we would run waste stream to a stoage tank and tie it into the irrigation system. The other systems tied into other lines are plausible but explaining the waste stream going back into the main supply system can be awkward. Good Luck !!
 
Icon_missing_medium andrewchrist... 0 Posts
10/13/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

I hear this more and more. I don't want to get an RO "because of all that wasted water", etc. The total amount of RO drain water is incredible low compared with the total waste water used on a daily average.

Pushing the water back into service does require a pump to gain enough pressure to over overcome household pressure. Doesn't that require extra energy? The cost goes up due to the additional equipment and that "extra filter' is removed perhaps affecting the water quality. I think there are better ways to look at it.

My point isn't whether the system is good, great or bad. But what is it that people really consider when the word 'wasted' used.

The water in question in the RO process is called concentrate water because the TDS in that water is concentrated due to its removal from the source water and making the permeate water (the water you drink) 'cleaner'.

One shouldn't confused waste water with wasted water.

If I talk about wasted water, I am pointing out that toilet that is constantly running, that dripping faucet, that three-minute pre-shower warm-up, the unnecessary regenerating softener, that garden hose on the lawn that just keeps flowing.

In other words, wasted water is water that is used without purpose, function or positive results. Every drop of water that comes from its source becomes waste water, your showers, dishwasher, every ice cube, etc., but has it become wasted, useless, without purpose or function? Hopefully not.

I don't consider concentrate water as wasted water. It serves a very important purpose and, in my opinion, can be argued to be the most valuable and conservative of all the water that you use on a daily basis. Some RO's concentrate have a far greater ratio (wasted?) than others, so the design of the RO can be considered when selecting equipment.

Two valuable functions are that it washes away the very contaminants that you prefer not to enter your body--pretty important! and far more conservative (and possibly more valuable) than any shower. Also, it greatly prolongs the life of the membrane so that you it can last for years instead of days. Two very important functions, right?

Yes, there is waste water but it is far from being wasted.

There are a few ways to conserve water. One: to use less water to accomplish the same function or Two: use the same water for more than one function. And a third of course is to use less water to accomplish more than one function and so on... Nonetheless, it all becomes waste water. The point is, don't let the waste water become wasted water.

I recommend to those who find this important to take concentrate water and drain it into a container, such as a five gallon jug, and use that water for plants, pets, washing hands, even flushing the toilet, etc. These are techniques you are forced to develop when your source water is rationed, there is a severe shortage or untreated water is grossly unacceptable.

Suddenly the semantics of waste and wasted take on a very different meaning.
Andy Christensen
 
Icon_missing_medium mikemcgowan 0 Posts
10/13/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

I’m curious if anyone out there has any experience with attempting to create a zero waste residential POU RO. I’ve heard of people using a booster pump to feed the RO and then taking the concentrate line and plumbing it back into the home’s main feed as far upstream from the RO feed as they can. The scenario being if the static pressure in the home is 60 psi and the booster pump feeds the RO at 100psi the drain water will come out at a high enough pressure to overcome the homes 60 and reenter the main feeding the house. This way the few gallons a day of high TDS drain water is theoretically diluted & reused somewhere else like the outside faucet, shower, toilet, etc. I have a client (2 in the family) that would like an RO but doesn’t like the idea of wasting any water. I thought I’d see if anyone had done this successfully before. Thanks, Mike

 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/12/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

Neither of those are something we would recommend. For too many reasons to list here.
 
Icon_missing_medium Taoward Lee 10 Posts
10/12/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

The conversion of the WAC to the Na form in unnecessary if there is enough NATURAL alkalinity available AND the pH is allowed to be mildly acidic as it exits the WAC column.
For highly alkaline water, you might split-stream the WAC in the Hydrogen form with WAC in the sodium form where the combined stream is in an acceptable pH range. (This way you can convert the WAC to the sodium form using the alkalinity from the water source instead of buying caustic soda.)

Taoward Lee
Ecosystems, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

 
Laurence%201998 Laurence DAl... 2 Posts
10/10/2010

WTO Board / looking for media for arsenic

Have you tried Iron Oxide based media? Arsenic has a high affinity for iron oxide based minerals and can adsorb quickly to the surface of the media.
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

Toward Lee is correct. Not everyone uses WAC resin in the H form. More use it in the Na form which requires both an acid regeneration and a caustic regeneration.
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

I, as an employee of a resin manufacturer, will be happy to share Elution Study protocols. To detailed to put here. Just send me an email requesting the info and I will email it to you. Chris' posting is a "one shoe fits all" idea. I suppose if one chooses those flow rates then have it. Otherwise do an elution study and eliminate call backs because the water is either not soft or taste's salty.
 
Icon_missing_medium chrishughes 0 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

I checked with the resin manufacturer. I was told:
"Slow rinse is 1.2 bed volumes of water at same flow as dilute brine. 1 bed volume equals 7.49 gallons per cubic foot so 1.2 BV for a 1 cf system is 9 gallons. Divide this by flow rate and this gives time. The 1.2 BV is designed to move the 10% brine plug through the bed allowing all the resin to have the same contact time before the fast rinse begins. If you determine the 10% brine moves through the FM bed slower or faster then the amount of slow rinse should be adjusted accordingly."
 
Icon_missing_thumb Anonymous
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

There are several information sources available for elution study info.Take your pick.Type in water softener elution study into an engine and choose the one that is the most understandable to you.
It would be of interest to find out how many of us actually use elution as a regular form of service.

Gary L. Lindsey
CWS VI CI
 
Icon_missing_medium Taoward Lee 10 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

The weak acid resin is only reliable if the pH is consistently above 4. Acid surges will convert the resin to the hydrogen form and cause the possibility of zinc or copper spikes. The WAC resin in the hydrogen will not pick up the copper and zinc without converting it to the Na form.

High TDS with high sodium will interfere will zinc and cooper removal using a SAC in Na form.


 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

Sorry for the ugly typo.....Many of us here....simpletons like me and my typing !!!
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

Gary, elution study time is the correct way but many of usher do not understand how to do it. Could you shed a little light on the subject for us? THANKS
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

The best way to do that is to start the softener regeneration and then during slow rinse do a Brine Elution study to determine the time needed to set for slow rinse. Failing taking the time to do that you can use the recommendations shown on any resin manufacturer's Engineering Bulletin and choose the flow rate and number of bed volumes within the range shown and "hope" you have chosen correctly. You cannot beat the Elution Study way.
 
Icon_missing_medium chriskofer 0 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

Thank you.
 
Laurence%201998 Laurence DAl... 2 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / FDA Certification

How do I get a copy of the Watercheck with Pesticides test by NTL?
 
Icon_missing_thumb Anonymous
10/06/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

I have in the past installed 50 GPD membranes without changing the concentrate restriction.As long as the original membrane production was close.For instance 36 GPD.Most of the applications were on municipal water supply.Ultimately 3.5 to1 or4 to 1 for residential use should be the drain to product ratio.If the ratio drops you run the risk of problem with fouling the membrane particularly using private well supply. There are numerous charts available online to give in milliliter the flow amounts.It might be a good idea to pick up a milliliter graduate at a lab supply for this purpose.If you continue to load up membranes you might try installing a bypass around the drain.In other words install a tee in the tubing before the drain fitting. Install a 1/4" ball valve on the line from that tee to drain.You can then periodically open that ball valve and move water at a higher rate along the membrane surface and dislodge build up. Of course if the restrictor happens to be an insert type you'll have to replace it with an inline type. There are certainly other issues you might want to look into to include the type of prefiltration you're using both directly associated with the RO and upstream.


Gary L. Lindsey
CWS VI CI
 
Icon_missing_medium richardchase 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

You should check with the resin manufactures technical data specs on the grade your using. Typically on cation resin you will need three bed volumes for slow rinse and four bed volumes for fast rinse.