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Icon_missing_medium davepaulson 0 Posts
10/26/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

The Merlin uses a higher flux/lower rejection membrane as part of the design reason they have a higher flow rate. Most other RO membranes will do better. The low pressure will contribute to the problem. What recovery is the system run at?
 
Icon_missing_medium henryhidell 0 Posts
10/26/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

I am not entirely sure that it is the boron alone. If you constantly ozonate the water while it is in storage as you have indicated, it could also be a result of over-ozonated water. The upper limit of boron in water before it causes problems is generally around 20 mg per/L/ day which of course relates to the amount of water the customer actually consumes. So, I would look at ozone levels in the water as well and identify how the ozone is vented from the tank. I am sure that you have done this, but I would take a another look. It could be combination of issues, not just boron. Also, even lower values of boron interact with certain medications so if your customer is on a medicine, you should know what it is.
 
Icon_missing_medium Russ Knight 0 Posts
10/25/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Paul,
I pity you all if they are worse than ours. How did we let it get this way?
Russ Knight
 
Icon_missing_medium rexmunroe 0 Posts
10/25/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

Thanks everyone for the advice! I will probably try injecting caustic in front of the membranes to raise the PH to 10 and then re-test for boron. This would be fairly easy to do. If this fails to solve the problem then I will look into the boron selective resin.

Rex
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

Boron selective resins are expensive but they do work. One solution would be to not regenerate on site but supply the resin either in a one time use method or have it regenerated for them off site. I can send you our boron selective resin Engineering Bulletin. Contact me privately with an questions. Use my name link in this thread to do that.
 
Icon_missing_medium paulsweeney 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Reminds me to check on the progress of the Next-RO system and the 1 : 1 ratio of the water on water design. Any feed back or news how these systems are working out in the U.S. ?

Most 50 gpd RO systems do not run any where near 50 gallons per day, based on a 4: 1 ratio (which varies depending on a given water pressure and temperature). If an RO was working hard producing 10 litres a day and "rinsing" 40 litres a day, there still could be some savings to be made, going for a water on water design, I think higher using households would be happy with 10 litre a day RO rinse water, - what's that in municipal water charges ? say a tenth of one cent ?

For the record I've studied a big saving to be had over the years with metered water softeners. When Irish households do not have a water softener, the national figures / engineers noted figures for average household water use are from 400 to 600 litres per day.

Now, once a metered softener is installed, serviced and meter readings regularly checked whilst tracking down and maintaining no water losses, the regular annual figures balance out at 250 litres per day per household water usage over 1,000 houses or more that figures have been followed up for.

This suggests the household water losses with houses without some form of metering (that's nearly all houses here in Ireland) are running at about 50%. Of course 9 houses out of 10 are okay, its the odd ones with steady toilet seepages with sticky float valves that drive up the average. Some households we come across every year have toilets leaking a combined 6,000 litres a day toilet leaks with tenants unaware or not too bothered.

These houses of course are using about 24 houses worth of water each day and the lesser leaks that are more common are more so undetected, so it is easy to see why the national average suggested household water use is nearer 400 to 600 litres. So an RO is not a major issue if it uses say 20 litres a day concentrate compared to what unserviced Irish toilets lose.

Sure you could say if rainfall is not collected off all yer roofs, thats a shameful waste of water !
 
Icon_missing_medium paulsweeney 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Oh, Russ if you think your government need a bit of scrutiny, they are absolute saints compared to ours. Holy mother of b'Jeysus if only you knew how bad ours really are.
 
Icon_missing_medium paulsweeney 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Most of the dealers I do business with charge out at rates of 75 Euros to 150 Euros (about 100 dollars to 200 dollars) per call. Usually for a half hour onsite RO pre-filter change. Same again for 6 gpm UV system lamp change.

Full RO system service and callout is around 150 to 200 Euros. (Or swap out RO systems after 3 to 5 years for modest 300 Euro new system / higher spec upgrade.)

I import between 1,000 to 2,000 US made water treatment systems per year plus a container of RO systems and about 400 UV systems which a dozen or so of the trade dealers currently sell for around 800 to 1,200 euros for a water softener, 400 to 800 euros for RO systems, and 300 to 600 for the 6 gpm UV systems.

Fairly basic RO systems used to sell in prices up to 2,500 Euros (3,500 dollars) from some companies, but those days are gone, although most dealers used to sell for 600 to 1,000 Euros.

Salt here was sold in stores from (10 to 14 dollars per 55 lb bag,) and is nearer the 10 dollars equivalent in most places. Not many companies deliver although there are a small handful, and costs are normally upwards from 100 euros or 140 dollars for 10 bag drops.

Come to think of just a few years back, the record set for Celtic Tiger raw hide spanking robbery was set by some salesmen who would sell systems that packed up after a few months and costed 5,000 to 12,000 dollars equivalent.

One system sold to a family member of a particular salesman where they had bad drinking water and with high limescale costed 4,000 euros, it lasted a few months before clogging up, and it turned out they had no under sink drinking water filter or water softener installed, just a jumbo filter or two out in the shed, with a UV and venting tank.

The same sales chap sold an 8,000 euro system to a church minister which after a few visits and a few arguments became decommissioned, failing to just improve municipal water for water hardness. Similar firms here would charge 400 to 500 euros to go out to look at / service ? the mistakes they had installed.

Some scary stories back then, I think we need a new thread for those stories, may be good timing coming close to Halloween !
 
Icon_missing_medium stephencarr 4 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

A pH of 10-11 achieved by adding caustic would not damage TFC or polyamide membranes. It is probably the best treatment alternative.
The rejection of the Merlin membrane by the TDS values you reported is only 92%. Even at 70 PSI you should be using membranes that can give a 98-99% rejection. I don't know what is available in Merlin membrane options.
I question the test that indicates presently you have no reduction in boron concentration at all. To meet the proposed drinking water limit of 0.5 ppm would require a 84% reduction in boron from your water.
A google search shows there is a free patent explaining how a RO membrane can be chemically treated for increased boron reduction.
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

ps. from above......
We have never had good luck with Merlin membranes for removal of this sort. I don't know if it is the fact that they are low pressure, lower than normal rejection membranes or that I am just not capable of making them work, but I would suggest that you would use higher pressure membranes of a designed nature if you choose to take that path in treatment.
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

Rex,
I just did a boron removal system and some of the findings and treatments are listed in my blogs if you search by name. As for the materials to use, I would invest time into looking at Boron selective resin which can be regenerated, but safeguards would have to be put in place. The system I have installed is for a community potable water system and has been working just fine. You might try to get hold of Gary S. as to some engineering help as he has done several of these types of applications.
Good luck and keep me in the loop !!
 
Icon_missing_medium davehedger 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Dieldrin

Dieldrin is a chlorinated hydrocarbon with parafinic characteristics. GAC should remove trace quantities, although analytical verification is recommended to assure removal to below the action level. Life of the GAC will be dictated by other factors in the water, not trace Dieldrin. Again, analytical monitoring should be used to determine when the filter should be rebedded.
 
Icon_missing_medium alanhanna 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

We are on a two hour minimum service call rate.
PS Had your car or truck fixed lately?

Alan
 
Icon_missing_medium rexmunroe 0 Posts
10/22/2010

WTO Board / Boron Headache

I have a residential client that I am trying to come up with a solution to remove boron from her well water. Here is the raw water tests, description of treatment system, and treated water test results:

RAW WATER: ( test results are in mg/l)

Calcium- 1 Flouride- 1.2
Magnesium- < 1 Boron- 3.1
Potassium- 2 Copper- .03
Sodium- 257 Iron- < .05
Carbonate- 20 Manganese- .010
Sulfate- 152 Zinc- .02
Chloride- 2 PH- 9.2
Nitrate- 6.6 TDS- 457 ( field test )

TREATMENT SYSTEM:

Whole house RO using 3 GE Merlin systems plumbed in parelell. System fills a 2500 gallon storage tank. Water is constantly ozonated in tank. Water supplies house ( plumbing is pex ) and small garden with fruit tree's.

MORE INFO:

Pressure- Boosted to constant 70 psi before membranes
Flow rate- Constant 6 gpm thru system, with 1.5 gpm to tank, balance to drain.

TREATED WATER TEST RESULTS:

TDS- 36
PH- 7.2
Sodium- 28
Boron- 3.1

Did not test for any other minerals.

It has been suggested to me to inject caustic soda before the membranes to raise ph to 9.5 to 10 and then the membranes should remove the boron. I have been told that using soda ash to raise ph would ruin the membranes.
This is a system that I service monthly, however If possible I would rather not use caustic soda. I have also explored using selective boron resin but it appears to be very expensive and must be regenerated with caustic/acid. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 
Icon_missing_medium bonifaciofer... 0 Posts
10/21/2010

WTO Board / Dieldrin

Dear Watertech,

We are a long time subscriber of your magazine. We manufacture coconut shell activated carbon. Just recently, we were faced by a challenge by a potential customer. They had Dieldrin contamination in their waste water at 0.08 to 0.22µm. Which is way beyond the permissible 0.03µm. The volume is 150 liters per second. The turbidity ranges from 0.08 to 0.21NTU, and TDS is around 122.9 to 414mg/L. Can Activated Carbon remove Dieldrin? What will be the life of activated carbon if yes? What other way can dieldrin be removed from water?

Thank you for your kind attention and we look forward to hear from you.


Best regards,


Bonifacio Fernandez
 
Icon_missing_medium michaellong 0 Posts
10/21/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Andrew's response was excellent. I would like to add just one more minor point: A washing machine doesn't have a "waste" cycle; rather it is a "rinse" cycle. This is exactly what is happening with the drain side of the RO system. I hope that someday people will quit referring to the "reject" stream as "waste" water and start calling it what it is - "rinse" water.
 
Icon_missing_medium mikemcgowan 0 Posts
10/21/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Everyone –

Sorry I didn’t reply sooner. Thank you for your replies I appreciate your time, opinions, and expertise.

Andrew –

I especially liked your detailed reply and I think this one sentence sums it up, “One shouldn't confuse waste water with wasted water.”

Thanks again,

Mike M

 
Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
10/20/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Thanks Russ,
We just started delivering salt to our customers. I favor the ten bag minimum . We charge $85.00 for ten 50 pound bags delivered to the brine tank.
 
Icon_missing_medium richardde young 0 Posts
10/20/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Mike, Andrew Christianson's response is dead on.
I have over the years discussed/responded/defended this exact issue of RO "wasted" water using the same points that Andrew has. Andrew has hit it right on the head I have got to say I've never been able to put it in writing as good as he has. Kudos to you Andrew, I would like to use some of what you have written for my responses in the future.
The only thing I add in discussion to the consumer is to stay focused on what we are looking for and that is purified drinking water, now we have to consider the best and most cost effective way of getting it. When you consider the cost of 2 gallons of public utility water that is used to produce 1 gallon of purified RO water we aren't aware of a better solution.
Richard De Young
Advanced Water Solutions
Houston, Texas
 
Icon_missing_medium Russ Knight 0 Posts
10/19/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

We charge a flat $80.00 per hour residential, $90.00 per hour commercial from the time we leave the shop until we finish the job. Some (most) of our competitors charge lower rates than us, a couple are higher. We arrived at this rate based on our overhead, our desired profit margin, and comparing the quality of our work to the competition. While we feel the quality of our installations and equipment are superior to any of our competitors, we did not want to be branded as the most expensive source for water conditioning in our area.
We have also opened a plumbing and electrical supply retail store which has given our water conditioning business even greater public exposure. We offer relatively inexpensive (995.00 - 1495.00) DIY systems for those so inclined, to more advanced systems that include installation and service contracts. If we can ever get through this political / bureaucratically induced nightmare of an economy, we feel we are positioned to do very well here. Which reminds me to encourage everyone to "tro da bums out."
Russ Knight
 
Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
10/18/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Thanks guys, I was pretty sure we were in the same area on service work. We cover a three or four county area that is largely rural but we also have municipal water lines running into areas you would normally not expect to see them. We have hard and also run into black water sulper in this area, we also have problems with water availability. Thak you again for posting a response.
Rob
 
Icon_missing_medium richardrizzo 0 Posts
10/15/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

We cover a 100 mile radius from our main office and charge a $50 Diagnostic Fee, which is a visual inspection, plus a before and after water test, then $45 per half hour once we pull out tools to work on equipment.
 
Icon_missing_medium charlesthome... 0 Posts
10/15/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

Rob,
In the Midwest, City of 21,000, we charge based on man/vehicle cost/hour; establishing an average rate our service call is Labor is $35.00/hour and vehicle is $45/hour = $80/hour with a 2 hour minimum.
 
Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
10/14/2010

WTO Board / Service Call Rates

It has been awhile since I jumped on this site. We are presently charging $85.00 for a service call. I have heard anywhere from $60.00 to $105.00 is the going rate. We are located in the North East.

Rob
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/14/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

Mike,
If it is a POU and it uses few gallons a day my two cents worth might make sense. Permeate pumps work well to reduce waste water due to using the back pressure as a driving force. I have found that if someone wants to go green in a POE sytem, we would run waste stream to a stoage tank and tie it into the irrigation system. The other systems tied into other lines are plausible but explaining the waste stream going back into the main supply system can be awkward. Good Luck !!