|timothy devorak 0 Posts||
About ten years back, we had this same problem at several customers homes. We also, spent a large amount of time and money trying to get the necessary answers. We applied a U/V system to the well water and then, suggested an air purifiction system that would produce Ozone. That has solved the staining problems in all of the homes it was applied. Initially, in order to keep it a generic approach, we suggested that the customer purchase the air filtration system from any selected source or big box store. As long as it produced Ozone, we were sure it would eliminate the staining and it has worked 100% of the time with very little maintenence. Now, for our retail dealer network, we have a great source of air filters with Ozone production specific to this and other airborn bacteria.
|bryanzetlen 0 Posts||
radiation release at Knoll's Atomic lab brings new meaning to 'Drums Along the Mohawk' ;-}
|peterde dios 0 Posts||
if NF can be used for PEG recovery what parameters from the sample solution do i need to analyze? i wanted to pursue using NF and i plan to have the solution analyzed soon. your help will be appreciated.
|howardkanitz 0 Posts||
Larry: I was advised by a chemical engineer that r/o membranes soaked for 24 hours in a brine solution would effectively separate propylene glycol from the dilute. Have you ever heard of this? If you know a viable method for separting PG from its dilute I would be interested. We recover as much of the glycol we remove from hydronic systems as we can (without being able to separate out the water).
|Laurence DAl... 4 Posts||
Thanks to all for the valuable input. I even got charts e-mailed to me and contact by a company in Florida. I am familiar with backwash flow rates for GAC beds but not filter sand & gravel. Now I know.
|nickchris 0 Posts||
Sorry, here it is. AI25:
|nickchris 0 Posts||
I added chlorine to my pre-treatment and it has eliminated the iron smell. Not sure if this fixed the iron bacteria or the clear water iron. I am backwashing almost every day and at least every two even during low use periods. I agree that there is other stuff clogged down in there and I'll pull the head,empty the tank and take a look.
-Is it possible I can 'clean' the Filox vs. putting new media in it? How would I do this? A cubic foot of Filox isn't the cheapest stuff in the world and shipping on top of it adds insult to injury! Wich I could find a local supplier of the stuff.
Note that there was no 'bed' material (gravel, garnet or otherwise) - only the Filox. Here is the system:
-How can I tell how much pressure my pump is generating? I can tell you when I am backwashing and the pump kicks in, the needle moves up to about 50-60 psi on the pressure gauge.
-Somone mentioned to me that bacterial iron should be knocked out after I shocked it with bleach but I read somewhere it could come back and that chlorine in the well is not the best thing for your water pump (corrosion).
How do I rebuild the head aside from the piston and spacers? Doesn't seem to be many more moving parts than that and it's only a year and a half old.
|Rex Johnson 6 Posts||
Lawrence and Carl - I hear what you are saying but I must gently disagree with your thoughts herein.
Lawrence - if we wanted chlorine inside the home then why bother with carbon? If you felt as if this was the method to employ then you shoud put the carbon filter into bypass and flush the toilet (and just the toilet) until you get a positive reaction for chlorine in the water in the bowl. Then you have to go back to the system and place it into service once again. Seems like a lot of work to me.
Carl - Your suggestion that these tablets will greatly accelerate the decomposition of the flappers is not what I believe to be entirely substantiated. Yes, there will be an increase of flapper care, but in my mind this is a minor consideration given the alternatives. Especially since it will take years and years for this event to produce negative results. And since most folks will not necessarily refresh their tablets on a strict timeline there is even less of an issue. In addition, and more importantly, studies have shown that the levels of chlorine produced by most of these tablets is not all that much greater than treated city water in the first place. Again, these results will vary depending on consumption patterns. While the tablets are by no means benign to the harware of the commode they will not destroy it overnight. I would think that if this problem were that profound no one would ever use them in the first place and that the drumbeat from all concerned would reach extensive volumes. I honestly respect your beliefs however I also feel they are somewhat misguided.
American Star Water
|carlsmith 0 Posts||
A chlorine disinfectant tablet in the water closet of the toliler will help for the toilet but not if it spread to the shower or sinks in the bathroom."
Not an especially good idea. This will cause rapid decay of the material that the flush valve flapper is made of. Not only will the toilet owner spend more on toilet flappers, but leaking will occur causing water waste and therefor waste of the consumables in the water treatment system.
|davidh 0 Posts||
Is this clear water iron? How many gallons of water is used a day? When you shocked the well did you by-pass the equipment?
|Laurence DAl... 4 Posts||
We have an application for sand pressure filters as pretreatment for Activated Carbon Adsorption system. Flow 517 GPM. Adsorbing Petroleum Hydrocarbons. Service flow rate 12 gpm/sq.ft. We are going to use 3 84" diameter sand filters. Would the following be acceptable for the layers of sand and gravel?:
Bottom Layer: combination of 1/2" x 1/4" and 1/4" x 1/8" Gravel
Third Layer: #8-12 Garnet
Second Layer: #30-40 Garnet
Top Layer: Filter Sand 0.45-0.55
Question 2: We can supply treated backwash water from two of the 84" diameter sand filters while the third is backwashed. What backwash flowrate and % bed expansion do we need for a sand filter for this type of duty?
|Ray McConnell 0 Posts||
Nick, I would agree with Dave that it is time to rebed the system and completely clean if not REBUILD the valve. Air injection filter systems require backwashing on a daily basis. This is necessary to prevent the buildup of oxidized iron within the media tank. If the air injection valve is on the inlet line to the system than this would explain the buildup of oxidized iron in the inlet side of the system. If so check for iron buildup in the line coming into the system. This is an extreme amount of iron for this application.
Also check the pressure from your jet pump. Even though you may be getting sufficient flow (10gpm) it takes a considerable amount of pressure (30+ psi consistently) to effectively backwash this type filter system. Quite often "Jet Pumps" (above ground well pumps) DO NOT build up sufficient "HEAD Pressure" to properly backwash the media and problems such as this happen in a very short time. I would also agree that Garnet would be better as the underbedding material.
Good Luck, Ray
|Rex Johnson 6 Posts||
Citric acid will help keep resin cleaner but, of course, is not a disinfectant.
I have occasionally added a little bleach (not too much) to brine wells under very limited circumstances. However, if you have a chlorination system in place and working this should be a moot point unless you suspect fouling arising from previous sources and not yet addressed.
A whole house disinfection can never hurt. And with a carbon filter, most likely should be performed at least annualy.
The bottom line is: If there are Serratia marcescens present, and you are certain this is the cause of the pink slime then I go with Gary on this one:
"A chlorine disinfectant tablet in the water closet of the toliler will help for the toilet but not if it spread to the shower or sinks in the bathroom"
One final thought here - I have found galvanic activity to also produce similiar looking stuff but it's very different.
It's like our company - We treat every one the same - Different.
American Star Water Treatment LLC
|scottharper 0 Posts||
Thank you for the response. I had figured this but wanted to ask others with more experience in water treatment than myself.
I guess my next step would be to get a sample to a lab and have it confirmed.
|Gary Schreib... 0 Posts||
Nothing else you can do. That is an airborne contaminant. The following is quoted from a Wikipedia posting on Google:
"Due to its ubiquitous presence in the environment, and its preference for damp conditions, S. marcescens is commonly found growing in bathrooms (especially on tile grout, shower corners, toilet water line, and basin), where it manifests as a pink discoloration and slimy film feeding off phosphorus-containing materials or fatty substances such as soap and shampoo residue. Once established, complete eradication of the organism is often difficult, but can be accomplished by application of a bleach-based disinfectant. Rinsing and drying surfaces after use can also prevent the establishment of the bacteria by removing its food source and making the environment less hospitable."
A chlorine disinfectant tablet in the water closet of the toliler will help for the toilet but not if it spread to the shower or sinks in the bathroom.
|scottharper 0 Posts||
My customer uses chlorination/dechlorination and softener for her well treatment. I recently began to service it monthly. She has recently told me that for a few years she has had a pinkish slime in her toilets. It cleans easily but returns in a few days. I suspect from reading(but have not confirmed yet) Serratia marcescens. I recently added citric acid to brine to clean the softener.This did not seem to help. Is there anything that can be done through pretreatment to eliminate this from her toilets.
Thank you for any ideas.
|christwemlow 0 Posts||
I would suggest purchasing the AWWA-PNWS Cross Connection Control Manual. This will answer all your questions, and provide you with an excellent reference manual.
|richardrizzo 0 Posts||
http://www.treeo.ufl.edu/backflow/ has a lot of useful info and links regarding backflow prevention.
|georgesaliba 0 Posts||
Testable backflow preventers have full sized ball valves at entry and exit ends of the device. There are also test cocks on the side or top of the devices to allow testers to hook up their test gauges. Each test cock only test the section of the device that they are directly relative to.
The smallest testable backflow preventer is 1/2"
To qualify as a backflow preventer the device must be able to be tested.
A single check, check valve is not considered to be a backflow preventer.
There are three types of approved devices.
Double check valve
Reduced Pressure Zone
Pressure Type Vacuum Breaker
Each device has a hazard level that dictates which device is used where.
Then there is natures backflow preventer called an Air Gap.
|craigboesdorfer 0 Posts||
What we have noticed about Filox systems is that there has to be enough dissolved oxygen for them to work properly. To that end we add a chlorinator feed pump to every Filox system and have had great results. The other thing I noticed in your challenge was the build up of "rusty,goopy,sludge". To me this sounds like bacterial iron which the introduction of chlorine will also help
|darrinfeltner 0 Posts||
Does anyone have information on backflow preventors for point of use water systems? Many cities and states are now requiring them on all point of use systems as an additional revenue source. I know there are different requirements depending on the local codes but would like to find answers to the following questions.
What is the difference between a testable and a non-testable backflow preventor?
Is there a backflow preventor designed for 1/4" line?
Does a check valve or double check valve qualify as a backflow preventor?
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
|davehedger 0 Posts||
Nick, dealing with that much iron is going to ba an ongoing hassle. Rebedding at some frequency is probably simply going to be a periodic cost to the homeowner. I would suggest a couple additional things beyond what Jim suggested. You should completely strip the control head of the piston, seals and spacers, as well as the flat cap, and soak in muriatic acid. There are some ports inside that need to be cleaned. Also, make sure the mounting base is not plugged. If you do rebed, I recommend using garnet for underbedding rather than gravel. And of coarse clean or replace the distributor stack. Hope that helps.
|Jim Wark 8 Posts||
Sorry again for the poor typing ( Too much champagne at my wedding) , the backwash is important to be sized properly and at a higher flow than the service flow. With that much iron and H2S, You might consider a larger unit to handle this high demand.
|Jim Wark 8 Posts||
Filox systems of this type have had reviews running the spectrum from great to frustrating. Many of the things you just detailed have me looking towards needing a rebed of the media. I would open the valve from the tank and check the media to see if it might be fouled by just working so hard to take care of all that iron and H2S. My personal experience has been to oversize the tank slightlyto make sure I get a very good backwash of the media every time. The backwash flow as a general rule, should be about checked, as it should be usually much higher than the service flow for these heavier medias.
Another good idea is to get a new updated water analysis since well water can change quite a bit even seasonally in some areas. There could als beother chnges such as inthe PH, DO or other contaminants that are changing the needs or sizing of your media.
Good Luck, I am sure many others will have good ideas to consider also.
|nickchristopher 0 Posts||
I purchased a Filox system with a Fleck 2510sxt 10"x54" tank and 1.0 cubic feet of media. System ran ok for over a year and now its hardly working even after multiple backwashes.
I have high iron (16ppm) and H2S smell prior to treatment. No H2S smell makes it out of the tap but iron is prevalent now. I used to backwash every three days and now am trying every day since it got bad.
When running a backwash cycle, the first 13 minutes (which I guess is for the actual backwashing) the volume coming out of the drain is pretty strong (its a very short run from the valve drain to the sink - about 4 feet of plactic hose). However, the second stage when it runs for ~40 minutes (I guess this is where it adds oxygen to the filter media?), I'm barely getting a trickle. It used to come out a lot heavier. So..
..I pulled the backplate off and opened the piston. Spacers were a bit mucked up and the back two were so bad I had to pull them out with a pliers. I then pulled the head and there was a fair amount of build up on the inlet side (rusty, goopy, sludge). I tried to clean them up as much as possible and put everything back together. Initial Backwash still runs strong and I got a slight improvement on the second stage drain, but not much.
My shalow well is powered by an above ground jet pump that seems real strong (I opened up the bypass valve when I had piston out to flush it and I get a huge torrent of water coming out).
Has the media failed? Something else? What's my next step?
Note I have a pre-treatment tank that I use for soda ash to bring the PH up. Should I add chlorine to that? I recently shocked the well with chlorine when the problem first started.