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Icon_missing_medium andrewchrist... 0 Posts
10/13/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

I hear this more and more. I don't want to get an RO "because of all that wasted water", etc. The total amount of RO drain water is incredible low compared with the total waste water used on a daily average.

Pushing the water back into service does require a pump to gain enough pressure to over overcome household pressure. Doesn't that require extra energy? The cost goes up due to the additional equipment and that "extra filter' is removed perhaps affecting the water quality. I think there are better ways to look at it.

My point isn't whether the system is good, great or bad. But what is it that people really consider when the word 'wasted' used.

The water in question in the RO process is called concentrate water because the TDS in that water is concentrated due to its removal from the source water and making the permeate water (the water you drink) 'cleaner'.

One shouldn't confused waste water with wasted water.

If I talk about wasted water, I am pointing out that toilet that is constantly running, that dripping faucet, that three-minute pre-shower warm-up, the unnecessary regenerating softener, that garden hose on the lawn that just keeps flowing.

In other words, wasted water is water that is used without purpose, function or positive results. Every drop of water that comes from its source becomes waste water, your showers, dishwasher, every ice cube, etc., but has it become wasted, useless, without purpose or function? Hopefully not.

I don't consider concentrate water as wasted water. It serves a very important purpose and, in my opinion, can be argued to be the most valuable and conservative of all the water that you use on a daily basis. Some RO's concentrate have a far greater ratio (wasted?) than others, so the design of the RO can be considered when selecting equipment.

Two valuable functions are that it washes away the very contaminants that you prefer not to enter your body--pretty important! and far more conservative (and possibly more valuable) than any shower. Also, it greatly prolongs the life of the membrane so that you it can last for years instead of days. Two very important functions, right?

Yes, there is waste water but it is far from being wasted.

There are a few ways to conserve water. One: to use less water to accomplish the same function or Two: use the same water for more than one function. And a third of course is to use less water to accomplish more than one function and so on... Nonetheless, it all becomes waste water. The point is, don't let the waste water become wasted water.

I recommend to those who find this important to take concentrate water and drain it into a container, such as a five gallon jug, and use that water for plants, pets, washing hands, even flushing the toilet, etc. These are techniques you are forced to develop when your source water is rationed, there is a severe shortage or untreated water is grossly unacceptable.

Suddenly the semantics of waste and wasted take on a very different meaning.
Andy Christensen
 
Icon_missing_medium mikemcgowan 0 Posts
10/13/2010

WTO Board / Zero waste RO?

I’m curious if anyone out there has any experience with attempting to create a zero waste residential POU RO. I’ve heard of people using a booster pump to feed the RO and then taking the concentrate line and plumbing it back into the home’s main feed as far upstream from the RO feed as they can. The scenario being if the static pressure in the home is 60 psi and the booster pump feeds the RO at 100psi the drain water will come out at a high enough pressure to overcome the homes 60 and reenter the main feeding the house. This way the few gallons a day of high TDS drain water is theoretically diluted & reused somewhere else like the outside faucet, shower, toilet, etc. I have a client (2 in the family) that would like an RO but doesn’t like the idea of wasting any water. I thought I’d see if anyone had done this successfully before. Thanks, Mike

 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/12/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

Neither of those are something we would recommend. For too many reasons to list here.
 
Icon_missing_medium Taoward Lee 10 Posts
10/12/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

The conversion of the WAC to the Na form in unnecessary if there is enough NATURAL alkalinity available AND the pH is allowed to be mildly acidic as it exits the WAC column.
For highly alkaline water, you might split-stream the WAC in the Hydrogen form with WAC in the sodium form where the combined stream is in an acceptable pH range. (This way you can convert the WAC to the sodium form using the alkalinity from the water source instead of buying caustic soda.)

Taoward Lee
Ecosystems, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

 
Laurence%201998 Laurence DAl... 4 Posts
10/10/2010

WTO Board / looking for media for arsenic

Have you tried Iron Oxide based media? Arsenic has a high affinity for iron oxide based minerals and can adsorb quickly to the surface of the media.
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

Toward Lee is correct. Not everyone uses WAC resin in the H form. More use it in the Na form which requires both an acid regeneration and a caustic regeneration.
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

I, as an employee of a resin manufacturer, will be happy to share Elution Study protocols. To detailed to put here. Just send me an email requesting the info and I will email it to you. Chris' posting is a "one shoe fits all" idea. I suppose if one chooses those flow rates then have it. Otherwise do an elution study and eliminate call backs because the water is either not soft or taste's salty.
 
Icon_missing_medium chrishughes 0 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

I checked with the resin manufacturer. I was told:
"Slow rinse is 1.2 bed volumes of water at same flow as dilute brine. 1 bed volume equals 7.49 gallons per cubic foot so 1.2 BV for a 1 cf system is 9 gallons. Divide this by flow rate and this gives time. The 1.2 BV is designed to move the 10% brine plug through the bed allowing all the resin to have the same contact time before the fast rinse begins. If you determine the 10% brine moves through the FM bed slower or faster then the amount of slow rinse should be adjusted accordingly."
 
Icon_missing_medium Taoward Lee 10 Posts
10/08/2010

WTO Board / Removal of Cu and Zn

The weak acid resin is only reliable if the pH is consistently above 4. Acid surges will convert the resin to the hydrogen form and cause the possibility of zinc or copper spikes. The WAC resin in the hydrogen will not pick up the copper and zinc without converting it to the Na form.

High TDS with high sodium will interfere will zinc and cooper removal using a SAC in Na form.


 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

Sorry for the ugly typo.....Many of us here....simpletons like me and my typing !!!
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

Gary, elution study time is the correct way but many of usher do not understand how to do it. Could you shed a little light on the subject for us? THANKS
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

The best way to do that is to start the softener regeneration and then during slow rinse do a Brine Elution study to determine the time needed to set for slow rinse. Failing taking the time to do that you can use the recommendations shown on any resin manufacturer's Engineering Bulletin and choose the flow rate and number of bed volumes within the range shown and "hope" you have chosen correctly. You cannot beat the Elution Study way.
 
Icon_missing_medium chriskofer 0 Posts
10/07/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

Thank you.
 
Laurence%201998 Laurence DAl... 4 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / FDA Certification

How do I get a copy of the Watercheck with Pesticides test by NTL?
 
Icon_missing_medium richardchase 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

You should check with the resin manufactures technical data specs on the grade your using. Typically on cation resin you will need three bed volumes for slow rinse and four bed volumes for fast rinse.

 
Icon_missing_medium chriskofer 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / Filox system no longer working

We do well using IX for manganese-even in soft water.

You need to be thoughtful of what happens to the waste water if you backwash filters frequently. If it's going to a septic system, you may be increasing the load on that two- or three- fold.
 
Icon_missing_medium chriskofer 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

I suspect fouling may be an issue if the velocity is too low. The value of certification is a whole other discussion.
 
Icon_missing_medium davidcarlile 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

Maybe a better analogy would be: change from a 4 cylinder engine to an 8 cylinder and NOT changing the transmission and differential.
Okay - back to water speak: for proper RO operation, check with the RO membrane manufacturer for their recommended Product to Reject ratio. Typically this is 1:3 or similar. To just change the membrane to a 50 GPD will subject you and your clients to possible membrane fouling, shortened membrane life, and reduced % rejection performance.
Solution: pick a membrane AND matching flow control and change both when the service indicates membrane change is necessary.
PS: if the unit is NSF certified, you may want to consider using only the original OEM components to properly maintain the NSF status.
 
Icon_missing_medium mariannemetzger 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / FDA Certification

Chlorine is considered a pesticides by the EPA as it is used to kill microorganisms.
Marianne Metzger
National Testing Laboratories
 
Icon_missing_medium chrishughes 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / Softener Slow Rinse Time

How does one establish the slow rinse time of the regeneration cycle? If it matters this is for upflow brining of a packed resin bed.
Thanks
 
Icon_missing_medium chriskofer 0 Posts
10/06/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

I was hoping for a more technical reason....
 
Icon_missing_medium richardchase 0 Posts
10/05/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

Not a smart idea. That’s like changing the sparkplug on your lawnmower and not properly gaping it.

 
Icon_missing_medium chriskofer 0 Posts
10/05/2010

WTO Board / A universal RO membrane?

I have been more requests to service undersink ROs installed by others-generally fairly generic units. Most of them are installed on unchlorinated well water.

My question: would I be safe by installing 50 gpd tfc membranes without changing the flow control?
 
Icon_missing_medium christopherd... 0 Posts
10/04/2010

WTO Board / Ultra Filtration

The ElectroCoagulation process uses electricity and metal blades to make tannins separable from the water without the aid of additional chemicals. Therefore, there are no hazardous waste disposal costs. Lime softening would require bring in truck loads of lime, hauling away truck loads of precipitated lime sludge, several full time operators, and continues operation. EC is much simpler and less expensive to operate. With our EC units power requirements are low, they can handle high volume, and they can turn off and on by demand using a float switch. A simple flotation barrier installed in the existing pond will clarify the water before discharge. The coagulated solids will remain in the pond. An atmospheric clarifier could be use to separate the solids from the coagulated water if you want collect the solids for continual disposal.

We just installed a 1,000-gpm EC + UF system as pretreatment to RO. ElectroCoagulation is very effective eliminating the problems associated with contaminants being too small to be stopped by the UF.

 
Laurence%201998 Laurence DAl... 4 Posts
10/04/2010

WTO Board / FDA Certification

Don't understand your meaning. Chlorine is not a pesticide. If PAC comes in contact with food and beverages, doesn't it have to be FDA Certified?