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Icon_missing_medium Allen Hurtado 9 Posts
12/06/2010

WTO Board / Black Water from Water Heater

I've seen this many times. Assuming there is no Mn, it could be copper or an iron oxide or a combination. Ferrous iron components in the system could be contributing the iron.
Take a small amount of the material, dissolve it with a reducing agent or acid and test for both copper and iron to see whether it contains either one or both.
Water chemistry may be playing a part, but improper design w/ excessive recirc. velocity alone can be a problem or accelerate a water chemistry-caused problem.
It should not be necessary to recirculate more than 2-gpm through a 1/2" return or 4-gpm through a 3/4" return. That's a velocity of approx. 3-feet per second and would completely recirculate a 200-ft. long loop of that diameter pipe in just over 3-min.
It's also not a bad idea to filter outgoing hot water or recirc. hot water for removal of corrosion products. These so frequently end up only in the laundry where the offending staining corrosion products are invariably attracted to the most expensive white blouse or expensive shirt. And hey! it's another expendable to sell.
Here's a good guide I have shared that talks about these issues.
Best of holidays to everyone
Allen
 
Icon_missing_medium seanhauser 0 Posts
12/06/2010

WTO Board / Overseas Employment - Afghanistan (Supporting US Military)

I may take a look at this. Less hours and better pay then my present position!
 
Icon_missing_medium markreynolds 0 Posts
12/05/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

The single biggest reason septic drain fields fail is SALT. The salt comes from our diets, water soteners and powdered soaps. Salt causes hardpan in farm filed soil and they call this hardpan. The septic pumpers call drain field failure hardpan as well.
If you need more information check out www.septicdrainer.com
 
Icon_missing_medium Carl LaChance 1 Post
12/05/2010

WTO Board / Black Water from Water Heater

I believe the black your seeing is copper. I have seen this before. the recirc lines are too small and the water is going through them to fast. you cn confirm this by analysis on the black substances. If it is as i suspect, slow the water down through the recirc lines with a flow restrictor...
 
Icon_missing_medium Rex Johnson 6 Posts
12/04/2010

WTO Board / Black Water from Water Heater

Allan -
Very curious.
Since we are in North Central Florida we have never tested any water sample with no hardness. That in itself puts me outside your parameters.
However, we have lots of experience with sacrificial rods, annode rods, mag rods. etc. etc. etc. In our experience, some of them (about 20%), will react badly with a newly emplaced water softener. They will stink like a wet dog needing a bath. We just cut them out (voiding the heater warranty) and all is well.
Now, I am interested in the 2,500 gallon storage tank. Why is it there? Then I am interested in the recirculating pumps. Which part of the water is constantly recirculated? Is is just to the water heaters (as is common in hotels here) or do these pumps recirculate all the water all the time?
Is there any odor from this black water? How big are the particles? Are they soft or hard? Have you put a magnet on this discharge and tested it for magnetic properties?
Everything I have read in your post is most unusual. You are fortunate to have such an interesting situation. As we like to say around here - more information please.
Cordially
Rex Johnson
 
Icon_missing_medium dennissheahan 0 Posts
12/03/2010

WTO Board / Automatic Sediment Filter Advice

Since you guys have given me great advice on how to treat my water in the past I thought I would ask for your advice again. I have decided to go with a large distiller for my drinking/cooking water and purchased a good used inexpensive unit. Since this is an older model it doesn't have a pre carbon filter with it and I am not positive that I need one but the newer ones come with it.

So with that in mind one of the components I am going to get is an automatic sediment filter. I can get one that does just sediment and has a Fleck7000SXT control on it with filter ag that filters down to 5-15 microns. I also saw a major brand one that only filters sediment down to 40 microns but also has a carbon bed in it.

The major brand one recommends the unit be placed after the water softener on a well but before the softener for city water. The major brand one bed sparks my interest because I believe I could eliminate the need for stand alone pre carbon filter for my distiller and the unit costs a lot less. That unit is pretty much disposable since I can't replace the media and it rated between 570k to 2.2 million gallons based on the chlorine levels.

So which one do you guys think I should get? Also what are the pros and cons of placing either one before or after a water softener?

Thanks

 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
12/03/2010

WTO Board / Black Water from Water Heater

Agree with Gary. Some of the anodes are made with magnesium and could be part of the problem depending on he water characteristics. The rods usually are the culprit in this type of situation. A water analysis might have given us more clues though... PH, Alkalynity, sulfites etc..
 
Icon_missing_medium Rex Johnson 6 Posts
12/02/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

Lawrence - No offense taken at all. You are one of the most respected members of this forum and an individual who has a vast lifetime of elevated experiences in this field. However, if you choose to quote me, then please remember to include the caveat I included in my statement:
"They are vital to many areas of expertise but tend to be out of the water, so to speak, regarding water treatment."
While that may still be broadly stated, and while I acknowledge the expertise many engineers (no caps for the word) bring to our craft, I still maintain that a great number of these fellows are obsessed with numbers and have little or no practical expertise in the real world of water treatment unless they have been specifically trained in this very narrow field of endeavour.
This forum has not the space, nor I the time, to relate numerous occasions wherein an ignorent structural engineer has attempted to design a functioning water treatment system with no grasp of the concepts involved. I have found, sadly, that these poor fellows are highly educated, well motivated souls, but frequently attempt to remedy field situations via book learning.
This result of this combination is always a prescription for trouble.
So, yes of course, there are legions of engineers who know more than all of us combined. Unfortunately, in my professional career, I have not the great good pleasure to meet many of them.
Cordially
Rex Johnson
American Star Water Treatment
 
Icon_missing_medium allanprice 0 Posts
12/02/2010

WTO Board / Black Water from Water Heater

I have a customer that has a new house that is on well water.
No hardness, iron, manganese or H2S. The well feeds a 2500 gallon storage tank. There is no treatment on the water. This is a weekend home with 2 50 gallon State water heaters. There are two expansion tanks and two recirc pumps all plumbed with copper. There is no staining on the cold side but all the hot water faucet will run black and has heavy black particles.

Anyone have any experience with water heaters causing black water?

Allan Price

 
Icon_missing_medium dennissheahan 0 Posts
12/02/2010

WTO Board / Overseas Employment - Afghanistan (Supporting US Military)

And they want to deploy me for $70,000 per annum based on a 24/7 work week. Work rotation is 365 days on and go back to civilian work when I get home. All flights (C130), accommodations (tent city), etc (MRE) provided. I think I like the water gig better. Good thing I am about to retire after 26 years so I can land a civilian job over there. Sorry, couldn't resist. The troops do need good water over there that's for sure. Glad to see they are on here asking for pro's.
 
Icon_missing_medium dennissheahan 0 Posts
12/02/2010

WTO Board / Hardness pluss high TDS,Chloride & Sulfate

Well I decided to go with a distiller for my drinking/cooking water. I got a used one off of C-list pretty cheap. I guess we will see how it does when I get it installed. If it works out I may get a brand new one down the road.
 
Icon_missing_medium michaelchild 0 Posts
12/02/2010

WTO Board / Overseas Employment - Afghanistan (Supporting US Military)

We are currently hiring water bottling operators and technicians to work on US Military Bases in Afghanistan. Operators package is $97,000.00 per annum and Technicians is $132,000.00 based on a 72 hour work week. Work rotation is 90 days on and 14 days off. All flights, accommodations etc provided. Interested applicants should send resume to schild@theaimgroup.net. All applicants must undergo a pre-deployment physical and background check that includes a credit check.
 
Icon_missing_medium dennissheahan 0 Posts
12/01/2010

WTO Board / Hardness pluss high TDS,Chloride & Sulfate

Just thought I would give you guys an update as to where I am with this. I decided to go with an automatic backwashing sediment filter system followed by either a bag filter or a dual gradient filter. I am also getting a 80k grain high flow water softener with a Fleck 7000SXT. I am still having problems finding a RO that will handle over 2000 mg/L of TDS though. One of the models I am looking at has a DI mixed media filter but I'm not sure how that would taste (flat) and have read mixed reviews about the dangers of drinking DI water. If there is anything new out there that I need to be aware of please feel free to chime in. Thanks again for all the friendly advice on here as I wouldn't be as far along as I am without it.

 
Icon_missing_medium Rex Johnson 6 Posts
12/01/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

Rob -
Engineers are not water treatment specialists. They are vital to many areas of expertise but tend to be out of the water, so to speak, regarding water treatment. I do agree that the discovery of this unusual substance (according to them) being associated with several different fields all with softeners would lead to some questions being raised. It's really incumbent upon them to find out what this material might be.
In my years of water treatment we have not experienced this effect as far as I know. There have been many studies performed on the effects of softeners on septic fields and it's been shown that there are no detrimental causal activities attributable to softeners.
Cordially
Rex Johnson
American Star Water
 
Icon_missing_medium Taoward Lee 10 Posts
11/30/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

Rob,
I would guess that the salt was relatively insoluble or limited solubility which would make it more likely to accumulate and not dissipate.
Based on this guess, I would also guess that it was a calcium compound which would come from the softener regenerations and/or from the natural hardness in water. Common insoluble calcium compounds are calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, and calcium sulftate among others.

Taoward Lee
Ecosystems, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

 
Icon_missing_medium Taoward Lee 10 Posts
11/30/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

Rob,
As you know, salt is a chemical term for a class of ionic solids. So yor terminology is ambiguous. However, you probable mean table salt (NaCl), try using the flame test for sodium to get an idea if it is there.
You might also test for the solubility of the ionic crystals. (Mix crystals in pure water. Check to see if there is an insoluble residual. If the remaining crystals is significantly less. You have predominantly a soluble SALT. You can also check the conductivity of the solution. If the conductivity is very high the salt(s) are highly soluble. Remember, Calcium chloride, potassium chloride and other chloride NOT just sodium are very soluble.)

Taoward Lee
Ecosystems, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

 
Icon_missing_medium mariannemetzger 0 Posts
11/30/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

I agree with Gary. Chances are this is not salt but other minerals. They can run an SEM or FTIR analysis to determine the exact make-up of the material. This type of analysis can be pricey but it will effectively determine what is causing the clogging.

 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
11/29/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

What they "perceive" as salt is likely not. Why don't they have what they see tested to identify what it is?????? Refer them to the studies done on water softeners and septic systems.
 
Icon_missing_medium robyoung 3 Posts
11/29/2010

WTO Board / Softeners & septic systems

Recently I have heard from a local engineering company who has on more than one occasion been involved in digging up a septic field and finding the field clogged with what they perceive as salt. There is a softener present in each of these locations. Has anybody ever heard of this happening?
 
Icon_missing_medium robbyers 7 Posts
11/22/2010

WTO Board / Rain Water Collection.

A low water recovery system incorporates your available well water, a pump,a water tank, a 60 minute timer and a reverse switch float. If you have a family of 4 using 75 gallons a day per person, you are asking your well to produce less than 15 gallons per hour. Put your well pump on the 60 minute timer to pump water for one minute every 15 minutes intop the water tank. A 5 gallon per minute pump will give you 20 gallons per hour or 480 gallons a day. Install the reverse float swithch in the water tank to turn off the power to the pump, not the timer. If the tank is full and the timer calls for water, the pump simply just will not run. From the water tank, you will just need to install another pump to supply the house. Please be sure to install a pumpsaver to shut down the water pump if the well should run dry. I hope this helps, be sure to match your timer voltage with your pump voltage. Here in the US if you use a 110 volt timer on a 240 volt well pump, you will have to run an extra neutral wire to accomidate the timer.
 
Icon_missing_medium keithvotaw 0 Posts
11/20/2010

WTO Board / used regenerated mixed bed resin

I have 5 cu ft of new never used, but NOT regenerated Mixed bed DI resin. Can let it go cheap as I will never use it. Some still in 8x44 tanks with 3/4 distributor and 1/2 in & out.
Keith
 
Icon_missing_medium Gary Schreib... 0 Posts
11/19/2010

WTO Board / used regenerated mixed bed resin

I have no choices to offer only advice. When buying used resin of any sort you must be sure to have a certified analysis of what the contaminants are on the resin. There are many horror stories of used resin being purchased that have things like radium, barium, uranium, etc. on them that can be problematic. Used resin is "cheap". Remember when you buy cheap you get what you pay for. When you buy new you pay for what you get without the drawbacks of cheap.
 
Icon_missing_medium georgeiliopo... 0 Posts
11/19/2010

WTO Board / used regenerated mixed bed resin

I may be able to help you out with it. Give me a call or send me an e-mail at george@wateroneinc,com or (630)539-1800.
 
Icon_missing_medium Jim Wark 8 Posts
11/18/2010

WTO Board / used regenerated mixed bed resin

Mark,
Is it for general purpose DI or is there a specific use or industry this is for. Some DI resins that have been used depending on what industry, can foul products if not compatible......Metals rinse DI versus say Pharma DI.....
Being a little more descriptive would do yourself and your end user better.
There by the way are many good resin contacts here on this blog, I am sure you would get several choices to choose from with just a little more info.
 
Icon_missing_medium jimneunaber 0 Posts
11/18/2010

WTO Board / used regenerated mixed bed resin

Hi Mark

You may want to contact Cyndi ate Surplus Management, Inc.